AMERICAN PATRIOT NETWORK TAX FREEDOM NETWORK
Q Did you obtain a reply?
A Got a reply on that one.
Q Dated April 5 of '91?
A Well, I got that, plus I got one February 21st.
Q I'm sorry. I looked a page too far.
A Yeah.
Q What was the nature of this reply on February
21 of '91?
A Well, this one they get into Section 603, they
get into all kinds of other sections, and they keep coming
back with 6012 again about individuals having gross income.
They mention a Section 6151. All I'm asking them is just
say yes or no.
Q How about the April 5, '91, letter?
A It lists 6011, 6012, 6001, 7601, and 7602.
Q Did they answer your question?
A No, sir, they didn't.
THE COURT: What's that, 15?
MR. BECRAFT: Fifteen is coming up, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. BECRAFT: I'll eliminate it.
BY MR. BECRAFT:
Q Fifteen is copies of your letters you made?
A Uh-huh.
MR. BECRAFT: Your Honor, I'd move for
admission of 15.
THE COURT: Okay. Received.
(Defendant's Exhibit 15 was received into
evidence.)
BY MR. BECRAFT:
Q Now, what is 15?
A Let me see. I don't have the numbers on mine.
Q I'm sorry. It's a letter from the IRS dated
9/12/91.
THE COURT: Just show him a copy.
A This is a document requesting -- it says it's
an information document request. It's from a Mr. Mel
Winburn. He's with the Internal Revenue Service here in
Chattanooga.
Q Well, what was he wanting from you?
A He wanted documents. He wanted -- let's see
what it says. "All books, records concerning your income.
Bank statements, savings account, passbooks, information on
other investment funds, records of all loans and repayments,
purchase invoices," so on and so forth.
Q For what year?
A '89.
Q Now, at that point in time when you received
that, had you already mailed to the IRS, before April 15,
1990, those 1099s, which is everything for the year '89?
A Yes, sir.
Q How did you respond to that particular request
right there, Exhibit No. 15?
A Well, I wrote a letter and asked him to show me
his authority to even investigate me. And I asked him,
since he knew who I was and everything else, I asked him for
his identification and where he lived. Because if he's got
a right to investigate me, I ought to have a right to know
who he is and where that authority comes from.
Q And what happened?
A Well, I got a letter back from him saying,
since I had asked to see, you know, his delegation of
authority, it says, "This letter is in reply to your
correspondence on September 29, 1991, We have received your
letter and determined that you do not intend to cooperate in
this examination. This letter is also to inform you that we
will use other means at our disposal to complete this
examination."
Q Okay. The affidavit, have you got that up
there?
A Yeah.
Q Do I need to give you this copy?
A There was a letter that I wrote back to him
after that.
Q I'm sorry.
A I wrote back and said, "Thank you for your
information. I realize that you're attempting to complete
an assignment given to you by your superiors. I have always
intended to cooperate with you and your organization; but my
requests, as stated in my previous correspondence with you,
are valid. As a native born, sovereigned citizen domiciled
in Tennessee, it is within my rights to receive from your
office your authority to conduct the pending investigation.
Upon receipt of that authority from your office, I will be
happy to personally give you the information you want. How
can such a request be determined as uncooperative?"
Q Now, did you ever get a reply back from that?
A I think we got a summons, where they summoned
my bank records.
Q Exhibit 16 is copies of them, signed and filed,
right? Have you got it up there with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q A copy of it?
A Uh-huh.
MR. BECRAFT: I'd move for the admission of 16.
THE COURT: Received.
(Defendant's Exhibit 16 was received into
evidence.)
Q Now, tell the jury what this is.
A This is an affidavit of revocation and
rescension. Through all of this research I have discovered
a social security number is not required, it's not
mandatory, it's voluntary, and that I had been told when I
was young that I had to have it to work, and I found out
later that I didn't have to have it, and in fact I had had
to voluntarily apply for it, but nobody told me at the time
that I didn't. So, I decided to revoke and rescind my
signature on that application.
Q Now, can I summarize this document?
A Sure.
Q It's long, single-spaced on legal length paper,
consisting of five pages?
A Right.
Q And what did you do with this document once it
was drafted?
A I sent it to to the Secretary of the Treasury
and then I filed it the county courthouse under
miscellaneous documents.
Q Franklin County?
A Franklin County, yes, sir.
Q If the jury were to read this right now, just
to save time, you have emboded in this affadvit the
substance of your position, right?
A That's correct.
Q You've stated in here that it's your belief
that you don't have a privilege and therefore are not
subject to an excise tax; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q You've also stated in here that it was your
belief that you're not liable for the income tax, right?
A That is correct.
Q And you've already explained fully to the jury
that. position, and it's embodied in this document that's in
there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, does this document for -- let's take the
days April 15th of 1990 or April 16th, whatever the date is,
and April 15, 1990. Would this, in essence, summarize your
beliefs and positions on those two dates?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, I've got one more exhibit, Mr. Long. Do
you know a fellow by the name of Joe Dickerson?
A Yes, sir. He's one of the members of our
group.
Q So, he's a personal friend. You've known him
for how long?
A Oh, man. At least eight years.
Q And what's your knowledge about who Joe
Dickerson is?
A Joe was about like me. He's just a laborer.
He works for, I think for Carrier up in McMinnville.
Q In early '91 you were working for Saturn,
right?
A That's correct.
Q So, you were working for a company?
A Right.
Q And you lived in Franklin County, Tennessee?
A That's correct.
Q And in 1991, the same time frame, Joe Dickerson
was working for a different company, Carrier?
A Right.
Q But he also lived -- well, not a stone's throw
from you, but in the same community, right?
A Right.
Q And you-all were friends?
A Uh-huh.
Q Has he ever informed you as to whether or not
he's had a controversy with the IRS?
A I don't really know too much about their
situation, whether they have or not.
Q I've just shown -- you've got copies. Did Joe
Dickerson give you some letters that he got from the IRS?
A Yeah.
Q Is that something that you read and relied
upon?
A Yes, sir.
Q The letter is dated March 14th of '91?
A I got real excited about them.
MR. BECRAFT: Your Honor, I'd move for the
admission of Defendant's Exhibit 8.
THE COURT: Okay. Received.
(Defendant's Exhibit 8 was received into
evidence.)
THE COURT: Again, these documents are received
only for the purpose of showing the defendant's state of
mind, and not for the truth of anything stated therein.
BY MR. BECRAFT:
Q Now, sometime in mid March of '91, did Joe
Dickerson or his wife talk to you about this exhibit, which
is a series of letters?
A They brought it to the meeting and showed all
of us.
Q Did you get a copy of their letter?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tell the jury what this is.
A Well, this is a letter from the Internal
Revenue Service in Memphis, Tennessee, to Joseph Carl
Dickerson, Route 1, Box 97A, Hillsboro, Tennessee. And it
says:
"Dear Taxpayer: Based on our information, you
need not file attached return for the above period. We may
contact you in the future if issues arise that need
clarification. You do not need to reply to this letter."
Q Did you understand that Joe Dickerson was
working for Carrier at that time?
A That's correct.
Q And he was being paid some type of salary or
wages?
A Right.
Q And he was, in essence, in the same position as
you are?
A Correct.
Q Different company?
A Uh-huh.
Q Doing the same thing, in essense?
A Similar, yeah.
Q Now, these letters cover what years?
A '86, '87, '88, and '90, I believe.
MR. COLLIER: I only have one letter, Your
Honor. If there are additional letters, I would sure like
to see a copy of them.
MR. BECRAFT: I gave you copies of the whole
thing.
MR. COLLIER: You gave me one letter yesterday.
This is the third time, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We've only got -- if only one
letter has been furnished to the government, then only one
letter comes into evidence.
MR. COLLIER: Your Honor, you will recall that
he showed you a copy of the letter and I made a comment
about the date. It was in the top right-hand corner of that
letter. That's the only letter that I've seen.
MR. BECRAFT: I find that hard to believe,
because when I made copies of it there were exactly, I
think, five copies of the exact same letter, and they were
all stapled together, and that was directly given to the
government.
THE COURT: Well, I'm sorry. I have to accept
Mr. Collier's representations on that. I do remember that
date.
MR. BECRAFT: I may as well clarify it right
now. Which one did you have?
(Counsel confer.)
MR. BECRAFT: They're all here, Your Honor.
There are four pages of them.
Your Honor, I see he has them all.
THE COURT: Let's wait until we find out what
he's got.
MR. COLLIER: They're all four different
letters. Nine are different, but they're all four different
letters.
THE COURT: Did you have the letters, Mr.
Collier.
MR. COLLIER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. Received. What is it,
Number 8?
MR. BECRAFT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: They're received.
BY MR. BECRAFT:
Q I've forgotten where we were. Joe gave you
these letters that related to a series of years?
A Yes, sir.
Q The last one on the page relates to the year
1990?
A 1990.
Q This is a letter dated and sent to him on March
14th of '90?
A Right.
Q What does it say for '90?
A It says, "Based on our information, you need
not file a tax return or the above period. We may contact
you in the future if issues arise that need clarification.
You do not need to reply to this letter."
So, Joe Dickerson is someone like you, and you
saw a letter to him, that, before April 15th of '91, the IRS
writing to him saying he doesn't have to file a '90 return?
A That's the way I read it.
Q what kind of impact did that have upon your
beliefs?
A Well, I thought they'd finally figured out, you
know, what was going on and that, you know...
Q Now, Mr. Long, let's go back a year. The year
before you got that, in '90, you sent out two different sets
of series to, what, four different people? Twice you did
the same thing. And you sent copies of your 1099s that
related to '89?
A Correct.
Q Did that in the early part of '90?
A Right.
Q So you had provided to the IRS everything that
you made for '90 -- I mean '89?
A Correct.
Q Did you believe that they could calculate a tax
based upon what you provided to them?
A I'd think they could, if I was liable for it or
owed it.
Q Now, here it is the following year, and '90 has
already elapsed and here we are in '91. Did you think about
doing the same thing again that year?
A Well, I thought about doing it again. But when
I got this letter from Joe, I figured, "Well, hey, they've
figured out the problem and they've corrected it, because if
he's not, you know, them saying he doesn't need to file one,
then I won't have to," because I had sent it the year before
and they hadn't answered my question.
Q Now, let's take all your questions together.
We're dealing with a series of letters here, what, seven or
eight, five or six? How many?
A About six, because some of them I sent twice.
Q So, six series of letters you sent to the IRS
over a span of time, these two years?
A Uh-huh.
Q And you asked specific questions?
A Very specific.
Q At any time did the IRS, or whoever you wrote
the letter to, ever come back with a specific answer?
A No, sir.
Q Well, what was your conclusion from all of
this?
A Well, my conclusion was that if they couldn't
come back with a specific yes, then obviously it was
voluntary and they were trying to just wait me out and see
if I would succumb to some kind of pressure and go ahead and
volunteer. That's basically it. Because I knew it was an
excise tax. I knew there's no section in this code book
that says I'm liable, or anybody else. And I just wanted to
see, because in my last letter I told them, I said, "I'm
writing to you in good faith, asking you specifically to
just tell me yes or no." And I thought good faith is good
faith. They're part of the United States government. You
know, they're not up here to deceive us. If we send them
something and ask them a straight answer, by golly, we ought
to get a straight answer.
Q All right. Mr. Long, you're charged with
willfully failing to file federal income tax returns for '89
and '90. That's your understanding, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, on April 15th of the following years, '90
and '91, when they're customarily due for that time, did you
know that you were required to file?
A Absolutely not.
Q Well, what was your belief? Let's not go into
a long...
THE COURT: I think we've been -- we're getting
a little bit repetitive.
MR. BECRAFT: I'll withdraw that, Your Honor.
Q Did you deliberately and intentionally refuse
to file returns?
A No, sir. I've never done that.
Q Did you have a purpose to violate the law when
you didn't file a return?
A Absolutely not.
MR. BECRAFT: Nothing further, Your Honor. I
tender the witness to the prosecution.
THE COURT: Cross-examination, Mr. Collier?
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. COLLIER:
Mr. Long, if we could, I'd like to clear away
some of the underbrush here. For the two years in the the
bill of information, you concede that your income was over
$9,500. You concede that, don't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q For 1990, the first year in the bill of
information, you made over $9,200?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the next year, Count 2 in the bill of
information, you made over $9,500?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don't dispute that?
A No, sir.
Q The government has proven that beyond a
reasonable doubt?
A Yes, sir. Certainly.
Q You also don't dispute that the Internal
Revenue Service would like to get returns filed before April
the 15th, unless April 15th was on a weekend? You don't
dispute that, do you?
A No, sir.
Q And you knew that, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were never confused about that, were you?
A That's right. In fact, on that particular
1989, I sent them my 1099 --
Q That's not -- please try to answer the
question.
A I'm sorry.
Q You knew that, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you knew that the income tax return, the
Internal Revenue Service wanted that information sent to
either the Memphis Service Center, the district director, or
the local IRS office. You knew that, didn't you?
A Let me back up a minute. I did not know, sir,
that I was required to file.
Q Please answer the question, Mr. Long. If you
could try to confine yourself to the question. The question
was, did you know that the Internal Revenue Service wanted
your returns sent to the Memphis Service Center or the
district director or the local IRS office?
A Let me say this, I knew --
MR. COLLIER: Your Honor?
THE COURT: You can answer yes or no and then
explain your answer.
A (Continuing.) No, sir.
Q Okay. You never knew that?
A I didn't say I never knew it.
Q You knew it at one time?
A I knew it at one time, yes, sir.
Q But you forgot it?
A No, sir, I didn't forget it.
Q You also concede that this court has
jurisdiction over you, don't you?
A No, sir.
Q You don't concede that?
A No, sir.
Q That's part of your defense then?
A Well, if I'm not liable for this tax, which I
have explained I don't think I am, then I don't feel that I
should even be here. Now, I'm not sure I understand what
your question is about jurisdiction, but I'm wondering why
I'm here.
Q You knew that the IRS considered the money that
you earned for two years reportable, didn't you?
A For '89 and '90?
Q Yes. You knew that, didn't you?
A No, sir, I didn't know that.
Q You didn't know that. You also knew that
Section 7203 was a statute which had been used against
people who failed to file their income tax returns, didn't
you?
A I have heard that, yes, sir.
Q And you also read it?
A Yes, sir.
Q It's in a lot of your books'?
A Uh-huh.
Q You've seen your videotapes where people have
talked about it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, the first year, when April the 15th came
and went -- I' sorry, April 16th came and went, the fact
that you didn't file your return was not because of an
accident, was it?
A Well, no, sir, I guess not.
Q You knew that April 15th was there?
A Yeah, it usually comes around every year.
Q And you let it go by?
A Could I explain?
THE COURT: You can answer the question, then
you can explain.
A (Continuing.) Well, it went by, yes, sir.
Q And you did not file an income tax return by
April 15th, did you?
A Are you calling a return what?
Q I'm calling a return the 1040 thing that you
filed the year before. That's what I'm calling a return. I
think it's says "Return" up at the top, doesn't it?
A It probably does.
Q You filed that for what, 16 years, 18 years?
A Yes, sir, sure did.
Q So, this is what we're calling a return.
A That's what you're calling a return. Okay.
Well, I had sent some information, but I did not file a
return.
Q You didn't file it, did you?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q And that was intentional, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q You intentionally failed to file, didn't you?
A Well, I guess you could say it that way if you
want to.
Q Well, what do you want to say?
A Well, I've asked them time and time again to
tell me I'm required to file one of those, and I don't get
any answer.
Q Well, let's clear this up. You say "required
to file." From what you've testified to this morning and
yesterday, I get the impression that you think that if
someone wants to file a return they can, and if other people
don't want to file a return they don't have to.
A No, sir.
Q You don't think that?
A No, sir.
Q You voluntarily chose not to file?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you thought about it.
A Yes, sir.
Q And you made a conscious decision to not file?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was your choice, to not file?
A That's correct.
Q No one put a gun to your head and said, "Don't
file"?
A That's correct.
Q And even though you thought that this system
was voluntary, if you had wanted to you could've filed,
couldn't you?
A I suppose so, if I'd thought I was liable for
the tax, yes, sir.
Q Whether you were liable or not, you still could
have, couldn't you?
A I suppose so.
Q But you didn't, did you?
A That's correct.
Q You chose not to?
A That's correct.
Q And if you had wanted to, you could've paid
your income tax, couldn't you?
A I didn't have any income tax.
Q Whether you have some or not. You said they
were donations, I believe, before, didn't you? Didn't you
say they were donations? You could've paid your donation.
A I said that was what the gentleman said on the
tape.
Q Did you believe that or did you disbelieve it?
A Well, it made a lot of sense, yes.
Q Did you believe it or disbelieve it?
A I believed it.
Q You believed it. So, you thought they were
donations. So, if you had wanted to, you could've made your
donation?
A That's correct.
Q But you chose not to make your donations
A That's correct.
Q But you knew that millions and millions and
millions of American citizens were paying their donations
every year, didn't you?
A I suppose so.
Q You knew that. That was no surprise.
A I don't know what other people do, sir. I
mean, I assume maybe they did. I don't know.
Q You assume that millions of American citizens
were paying --
A Well, you're telling me they do.
Q I'm asking you a question, sir. I'm not
telling you anything.
A I'm trying to answer it the best way I know
how.
Q You're assuming that millions of American
citizens --
A I assume from what you said. I don't know what
those people do, sir. I'm not into their private life.
Q You had no idea that most American citizens pay
their income taxes every year?
A I had some idea.
Q Oh, you did have some idea?
A Yeah.
Q Mr. Long, did it concern you that these other
people were paying their taxes and you weren't paying your
taxes? Did that ever concern you?
A Are we saying -- you just called it a
contribution a minute ago.
Q Did that concern you, that they were --
A If it's a contribution, why should it concern
me if I choose not to contribute?.
Q That didn't concern you at all, that they
were paying their donation?
A No, sir.
Q Okay.
A That's their choice.
Q That's their choice.
A Certainly.
Q And it didn't concern you? You didn't care?
A Why should I care? That's their choice.
Q Now, some of these people, the same year that
you were making what, forty-seven something and forty-eight
thousand dollars, were making a lot less money than you, had
two jobs, trying to put kids through college, having a tough
time. They were making their donations. But you weren't
making your donation.
A I'd been there before, too, sir.
Q So, that didn't concern you?
A Sure, it concerned me.
Q But you were willing to let them carry their
share of the American government and also your share? The
fact that you weren't paying meant they had to pay more.
MR. BECRAFT: Your Honor, I think that's an
objectionable question to appeal to the pecuniary interest
of the jury.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A Would you say that again, please?
Q You were not concerned that there were people
making considerable less money than you did in these years,
who were making their donations when you were not making
your donation. That didn't concern you?
A We're talking about donations now. I'm
concerned that they're making donations that they wight not
have to also, yes.
Q Oh, you were concerned about that?
A Sure.
Q You wanted them to not make donations?
A I wanted them to do whatever they felt like
they needed to do. That's their choice. That's what
voluntary is.
Q Did it concern you that these people who were
making their donations had to pay more because you were not
making your donations?
MR. BECRAFT: Your Honor, --
A I don't understand that, sir.
Q You don't understand that?
A I don't understand that. What I make has
nothing to do with theirs.
Q Now, you told us you paid income tax returns
for many years?
A Yes, sir.
Q You filed your returns and you paid your taxes
for many years?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe you said that everybody told you
from the outset that you had to file a return? Did you say
that?
A Yeah. I think I said that I did it because I
was told I was supposed to, yes, sir.
Q And 1969, was that about when you first filed
your returns?
A That sounds about right.
Q You were about what, about 20, 21 years old,
1969?
A Twenty-one, I guess.
Q Did your father tell you that you had to file
your returns? Was he one of the people?
A No, sir. I think they had it every year, so I
just assumed you did.
Q So, you saw your father file his returns every
year?
A Uh-huh.
Q During tax time when he was preparing his
income tax returns, did he mention to what he was doing?
you A Sure.
Q Would he gripe about it?
A Not really.
Q Talk about how much time it took?
A Not really.
Q Have to go back and find the records to do it?
A No. My dad always kept pretty good records.
Q It wasn't a bother for him?
A Not too much.
Q Okay. How old is your son?
A He's 18.
Q Is he working?
A Not right now, no, sir. He's going to school.
Q Have you told him that he does not have to file
income tax returns?
A No, sir. I've left that up to him.
Q You left it entirely up to him?
A Yes, sir. And whether he gets a social
security number or not, too.
Q He got a social security number, didn't he?
A He got one when they told him he had to have
one to get a driver's license.
Q So, he went out and got one?
A Yes, sir. And then a little after that they
changed the law and said you didn't have to have one to get
a driver's license.
Q But he already had one?
A Uh-huh. My daughter doesn't have one, though.
Q Now, this belief that you have that people
don't have to file returns and they don't have to pay income
tax, is that something that is central to you? Do you
really believe in that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Deep in your heart?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you don't think that people ought to make
donations to the government unless they really want to?
A I don't think -- let me think a minute. Say
that one more time.
Q You have not shared this central belief of
yours with your son, though?
A No, sir.
Q You've kept it away from him?
A Well, he's heard a lot of things. But I leave
his decisions up to him. I've always tried to, you know, be
open with our children.
Q Now, another element in this offense is that
you were required to file income tax returns. You heard Ms.
Sherard from the Internal Revenue Service testify that you
were required to file income tax returns. And you concede
that's true, don't you?
A No, sir.
Q You don't concede that?
A No way.
Q So, your defense is not necessarily that you
were mistaken about the law at that time? Your defense is
that, as you sit here right now, you still don't have a
requirement to follow the law, you know, to file an income
tax return?
A That's correct.
Q So, your defense is not a good faith mistake
about the law then? That is not your defense?
A I don't understand that question.
Q You told us a lot yesterday about a man named
Gordon, George Gordon?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you said you got some materials from Mr.
Gordon?
A Uh-huh.
Q Did you pay for these materials?
A The group did.
Q How much was it?
A I don't know. They were about five or six
hundred dollars, I believe, for all of them.
Q About five or six hundred dollars?
A Uh-huh.
Q How many people were in this group?
A Oh, it varied. Ten to twenty.
Q Who were the other people?
A Joe Dickerson was one of them.
Q Who else?
A Libby Dickerson, his wife. Jimmy Woods. There
were several other folks that I'm not too familiar with some
names right off hand. I'm not real great with names.
Q How about Tupper Saussy?
A No, sir.
Q How about Russell Leonard?
A No, sir.
Q Now, when you heard this man Gordon speak, it
really struck you or it opened up your eyes, didn't it?
A That's correct.
Q You thought this was one of the most amazing
things you'd ever heard in your life before, didn't you?
A Well, I wouldn't say that. It opened my mind
to some things that I wasn't aware of.
Q And you decided to check out a lot of this
information, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And when you checked on Mr. Gordon, you found
that he'd been arrested numerous times, didn't you?
A For various things, yes, sir.
Q You also found out that he had some
convictions?
A Yes, sir.
Q And after you read his books you found out a
lot of the stuff in his books was absolutely garbage, didn't
you?
A No, sir. Most of the things you're talking
about had nothing to do with tax. A lot of that was just
common law stuff.
Q Just common law stuff?
A Yeah, some of it. Most of it, as I recall.
Q Tell the jury what crimes Mr. Gordon was
convicted of.
A I don't know, sir. I didn't read that much. I
mean, you know, I read the material. And a lot of that took
place over the last 12 years. I really have no idea. I
know that he is involved in some things like that.
Q He's involved in some things like crimes?
A Well, I don't know exactly what he's doing, you
know. That's Mr. Gordon's business. I just read some of
his material. Some of it made sense to me, some of it
didn't. Just like when I went to school, some of it made
sense and some it didn't.
Q The fact that someone is involved in crimes,
though, doesn't disturb you and make you think that maybe
you shouldn't rely upon what they say?
A I didn't rely on a lot of the things. I
explained to you I went, I went to the law library and
pulled up the things that I relied upon.
Q Mr. Gordon was not a lawyer, was he?
A No, sir.
Q Mr. Gordon at one point was involved in what, a
bar in Boise, Idaho?
A A bar?
Q In Boise, Idaho?
A In Boise, I believe. I'm not sure about that,
sir. I only met the man one time.
Q But you thought enough of him to send off for
his book, and you checked him out at least --
A No, no, no. The group bought the books.
Q You were a member of the group?
A But I wasn't a member of the group when they
bought the books. I came in after that, sir.
Q Thank you for clearing that up.
A Okay.
Q But you thought enough of Mr. Gordon to at
least do a little checking on him. And you found out that
he had a criminal history?
A I heard a little bit about all that as time
went on, but I didn't really go and call up and try to check
on George Gordon's life, no, sir.
Q Now, one of the books that you got, your group
got, whether you were in the group or not, says "Law
Enforcement Growth Industry. Common Law Books." Is this
one of the books?
A Yes, sir.
Q And we just got this yesterday, didn't we?
A I believe so.
Q You didn't give this to us earlier, did you?
A No, sir.
Q One of the things that he says in this book is,
"In reality, citizens of America are living in a police
state and are completely unaware of it. There is little
difference between our government and the one in Poland."
And this was written during the time that Poland was under
Communist domination. You didn't believe that, did you?
A Probably not.
Q You thought that was garbage, didn't you?
A Uh-huh.
Q In the same book he again compares us with
Poland. He says, "There is no difference in the police
state in Poland and a police state we Americans have imposed
upon ourselves." You didn't believe that, did you?
A No, sir.
Q "There's one glaring difference in the adoption
of this system. We pay to have our rights subjugated to
limits of contract. The Pols save some money."
You didn't believe that, did you?
A I'm not sure I quite understand that, sir.
Q He also says, "There are not many people who
want to trade their slavery for the rigors of a life of a
free man. But for those few men and women who want to be
free, a school is open in Boise, Idaho, called Barrister's
Inn, to teach anyone who wants to be free how to be free.
Not everyone in America registers his car with his
government. Not every man and woman in American asks for
government permission to drive or have a license to drive.
Twenty-two million Americans don't pay income tax. There
are even some free men who don't pay personal or real
property taxes. The flame of freedom is involved. Every
person who wants to be free can free himself, but no other
man can free him."
You didn't believe that, did you?
A That every man who wants to be free can free
himself?
Q You didn't believe that 22 million Americans
don't pay income taxes? You didn't believe this about the
Unites States being a slave state? You didn't believe that
did you?
A I don't have any idea how many people aren't
filing income tax.
Q So, you didn't believe it? It might've been
true, might not have been true, but you didn't --
A I'm not even sure I read that particular
sectoin, sir.
Q So you didn't read this?
A Well, I may've read some of it. I didn't
necessarily read it all, no, sir. I mean, that thing is
that thick. I read the part that impressed me, adn that's
what I studied on, yes, sir.
Q Now, one of the things in another one of his
books, it's also called Common Law Study Guide, says, "Rules
and Procedures for Tax Avoidance." Do you recall reading
this?
A I may've read that.
Q And it has a list of 24 things that you should
do to avoid paying taxes?
A I don't remember them, sir. If I even read it,
I don't remember them.
Q Let me just read you a couple of them.
"8. Always use contractors for labor.
"9. Do not file 1040 forms.
"14. Use your declaration of lack of all
correspondence with every encounter with a public offical.
"Always demand to know who it is you're talking
to."
Did you follow this?
A Is there anything wrong with that?
Q Did you follow this?
A No, sir.
Q Is that why you wrote the letters to the IRS?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't follow this? You ignored it?
A I don't even remember reading it. But I don't
remember anything you said that there's anything wrong with
it.
Q Now, in another book, A Criminal Case with Use
of Videotape, did you read this book?
A I don't think I read that one.
Q You didn't read this one?
A No.
Q There's a person mentioned throughout this
entire volume. In fact, it's a person's criminal case. Do
you know who that person is?
A No, sir.
Q It's George Gordon.
A Okay.
Q In this whole book he's talking about himself,
his own criminal case. And you didn't read that?
A I don't think I did. I don't recall reading
it, no, sir.
Q And in this book there's an affidavit of
poverty. And what it says is that because the United States
does not use gold as currency anymore that one has any
money, which means he's a pauper, he has no money. You
don't believe that, do you?
A I don't know about that, sir.
Q You think that might be true?
A I don't know.
Q Another book. This one is Legal Quotations.
Federal Taxation Study Guide. Volumes I and II. Did you
read this one?
A I think I read some of it.
Q You did read this one?
A I read some of it, yes, sir. You've got to
remember, I'm doing this part time, here and there and
everywhere, working. You know, I'm studying these when I
can, sir. I didn't sit down and try to go through that
whole volume.
Q How much total time do you think you spent on
this?
A I don't have any idea.
Q How many hours?
A I have no idea.
Q How many weeks?
A Have no idea.
Q Well, this is a book that you admit that you
did read. Did you study this book?
A Which one is it?
Q This is Federa1 Taxation and Study Guide.
A I probably read some of that, yes, sir.
Q This is on, there's not a page here, but it's
at the, just past the divider.
A Okay.
Q It says, "This publication reflects the
author's opinion in regard to the subject matter covered.
It is handed out with the understanding that the author is
not engaging in giving legal, accounting, or other
professional advice or services. A competent professional
person should be used for expert assistance."
Now, what's he telling you is that you can't
rely upon any legal advice that he's giving you, isn't he?
That's what he's saying?
A I didn't rely upon his advice. I went to the
law library and pulled it up.
Q He also says that a competent professional
should be used, doesn't he? That's what he says?
A I guess. You've got it there.
Q You're not a competent lawyer, are you?
A I don't claim to be.
Q He also says that he disclaims any personal
liability, loss, or risk incurred as a consequence of any of
the information in his books. He's telling you that if you
follow anything that he says and you get yourself in
trouble, that's your tough luck.
A Okay.
Q Didn't that suggest to you that he didn't
believe what he was saying there?
A No, sir.
Q A few weeks ago you came to my office with Mr.
Leonard, and you and Mr. Leonard delivered some books to my
office. Do you recall that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you didn't give us any of the books by Mr.
Gordon, did you?
A That's correct.
Q You did give us a book by a man named Schiff?
A I believe so.
Q And when you talked to Agent Geasley back last
year, year before last, and he asked you about people that
you may've relied upon, you told him about Mr. Schiff, that
you relied upon Mr. Schiff?
A I don't think I said I had relied upon it. I
said I had read his book.
Q Okay. You did mention Mr. Schiff's name?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you never mentioned Mr. Gordon's name?
A No, sir. At that point in time I had just read
that book, Mr. Schiff's.
Q You had just read Mr. Schiff's book?
A Right.
Q Now, Mr. Schiff's book, the one you gave us,
says, "How Anyone Can Stop Paying Income Taxes." And you
read this book?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, at the time Mr. Schiff wrote this book,
tell the members of the jury where he was.
A I'm not sure where he was.
Q Did you read the book?
A Well, I've scanned through it.
Q On one of the pages he described how he was in
federal prison when he wrote the book. You don't recall
that?
A I don't recall that, no, sir.
Q And he says he was in federal prison for
violation of Title 26, United States Code, Section 7203.
A Okay.
Q You know what law that is, don't you?
A Sure.
Q That's failure to file an income tax return?
A Uh-huh.
Q Okay. Now Mr. Schiff in his book talks about
his fight with the court.
A Yes, sir.
Q As you skimmed through it, did you read that?
A Yes, sir.
Q His case went all the way up to the Supreme
Court, didn't it?
A I think it did.
Q And the Supreme Court rejected all of his
arguments, didn't they?
A That's right.
Q You didn't mention that to the jury when you
were talking about Supreme Court cases. You didn't tell
them that there was a case involving not coal companies, not
involving the Supreme Court of Arkansas, but involving
somebody charged with failure to file his income tax
returns, and that the Supreme Court rejected what you told
them. You didn't tell them that, did you?
A I believe Mr. Schiff's was a corporation, sir.
Q Mr. Schiff was an individual --
A He was an officer of a corporation, sir.
Q You think that makes a difference?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, on the very first page of Mr. Schiff's
book there's a paragraph which says, "There's always an
element of risk in standing up for one's lawful rights in
the face of an oppressive taxing authority backed by a
biased judiciary." You didn t believe that, did you?
A I don't know, sir.
Q You thought that was garbage, didn't you?
A That's Mr. Schiff's opinion. I don't really
know.
Q You thought it was garbage, didn't you?
A Well, I don't know that it's garbage, but
that's not --
Q You sure don't believe that, do you?
A It's not necessarily my opinion, no, sir.
Q You sure don't believe that, do you?
A No, sir.
Q In his introduction he says that the Americans
have been deceived by the federal government and an army of
accountants, lawyers, and other tax preparers. You don't
believe that the federal government has engaged in fraud
upon millions of American citizens, do you?
A No, sir.
Q You don't believe that most lawyers have
either, do you?
A Huh-uh.
Q Or accountants?
A I believe we've gone to sleep, myself, and
forgotten what our rights are, sir. I've stated pretty much
what I believe.
Q There's one chapter in his book which mirrors
his title, How to Stop Paying Income Taxes. "If you are
self-employed, retired or simply living on income from
dividends, interest, rent, or alimony, et cetera, it is easy
to stop paying income taxes. Just stop. Don't file your
1040."
Did you believe that, when you read this book?
A I read that book after I did what I did, sir.
Q Why did you give this to us in discovery then?
A When I talked to Mr. Geasley, I was under an
extreme amount of pressure because of the investigation, and
there was people walking around all my community --
Q That was over a year and a half ago, Mr. Long.
You gave us discovery a few weeks ago. Why did you give
this to us a few weeks ago?
A That was just part of it. That's what I had.
That was the most recent things I had, sir.
Q When you gave it to us, you indicated that
these were the things that you relied upon in forming your
opinion.
A I told Mr. Geasley I had read --
Q I'm not talking about Mr. Geasley, Mr. Long.
Mr. Geasley was a year and a half ago. We're talking about
in my office in the last three or four weeks. That's what
we're talking about.
A Okay.
Q And you told us, when you gave us this book,
that these were the things that you relied upon. Didn't you
tell us that?
A We brought that you to, yes, sir.
Q Didn't you tell us that, sir?
A I don't remember saying that I particularly
relied on that book. It was in with some of the stuff that
I had read over a 12-year period of time.
Q And you told us that you relied upon the things
that you gave us, didn't you?
A Well, yes, sir, basically.
Q Now, you didn't believe this, though, did you?
You thought this was garbage also, didn't you?
A Would you read that again, sir?
Q "If you are self-employed, retired, or simply
living on income from dividends, interest, rent, alimony, et
cetera, it is easy to stop paying income taxes. Just stop.
A Well, as I've stated, if those people are
exercising common right or occupations of common right, they
might could do that. Like I say, I can't get the IRS to
tell me that I'm required or liable.
Q So, you may have agreed with that particular
statement?
A Maybe, at that point in time.
Q This is another chapter here. It tells you how
to deal with the IRS. And it says, "In my untax seminars
that I have conducted all over America since 1977, and in my
freedom kit, I explain how citizens can deal with this type
of IRS intimidation." He has a whole chapter telling you
what to do. Do you recall reading that chapter?
A Not necessarily, sir. I think I read mostly
the sections of the code and where he talked about the
liability issue, is what I read in that, just to see --
Q It says that if you are asked questions, if
someone from the IRS wants to talk to you, write them a
letter back. Make a lot of demands from them. Ask for
their home telephone number and you'll put them off.
A I've read my letters. They don't make a lot of
demands, sir.
Q Well, did you agree with Mr. Schiff's advice on
how to put them off?
A Obviously I didn't, because my letters didn't
make a lot of demands.
Q Well, your letter to Mr. Winburn did.
A Yeah, but that was after they'd come wanting
information from me, when I talked to them and tried to ask
everything. I sent them everything I've got already. I
wanted to know who this guy was.
Q He identified himself, didn't he?
A Yeah. But how do I know that's who he is.
Q Oh, you thought he could've been in impostor?
A Well, that's possible, isn't it?
Q So, you decided to write him a letter back.
Your letter was what, about five or six pages?
A It was pretty lengthy, yes, sir.
Q You wanted his home telephone number?
A Yes, sir.
Q You wanted his home address?
A He had mine.
Q He had yours?
A Yeah.
Q But he was trying to, according to his letter,
determine whether you owed income taxes for the previous
year. That's what his letter said.
A I'd already sent them a 1099 --
Q You didn't send it to him, though, did you, Mr.
Long?
A Well, I believe there's a rule here that says
notice to the principal is notice to the agent.
Q What rule is that? Are you a lawyer?
A No, I'm not a lawyer, but I've heard that. I
mean, if I send to Memphis, surely they've got telephone
lines, he ought to know.
Q Mr. Winburn is in Chattanooga?
A Right.
Q And I think you told us during your direct
examination there must be hundreds and maybe thousands of
IRS employees?
A I believe I mentioned that.
Q So, you just assumed that he already had
anything that you sent to Washington or that you sent to
Memphis? You assumed that he already had it?
A I didn't assume that necessarily, but I assumed
if he wanted it he had it.
Q And that justified in your mind writing that
letter to him making all those demands?
A No, sir. My mind was I wanted to know who this
guy was that had asked me for this information and what
authority he had to do it. I believe that's my right.
Q Now, another chapter in Mr. Schiff's book says,
"Federal Judges. The Real Culprits." You didn't believe
that, did you?
A No.
Q You thought that was garbage, didn't you?
A Yeah.
Q And in here he talks about the federal
judiciary. He says that it abuses its authority, it makes
up laws that don't exist, misleads juries, denies people due
process, and, in short, railroads people into jail. You
didn't believe that, did you?
A No, sir.
Q That's garbage? That's garbage, isn't it?
A I don't have any experience, sir. You'd know
more about that than I would.
Q That's garbage, isn't it?
A As far as I'm concerned, yes, sir.
Q Then there's a whole chapter on his crime, "A
Short History of My Crime," where he talks about his
experience in being prosecuted for a violation of 7203.
You don't recall reading that?
A I might have.
Q You might have?
A (Moving head up and down.)
Q But it didn't make much of an impact on you?
A No, sir.
Q The fact that here's somebody in your
situation, you say that he was a corporation?
A I believe that's what I understand.
Q And you think that makes a difference?
A Certainly. Certainly it makes a difference.
Q But in here he talks about the Supreme Court.
He said, "The Supreme Court has to deny my petition in order
to hide its own guilt for allowing me to be sent to prison."
That's what Mr. Schiff said.
A That's his opinion. He probably --
Q That's garbage, isn't it?
A He probably had his feelings hurt.
Q That's garbage, isn't it?
A Right.
Q Mr. Schiff made up his mind that he was not
going to file income tax returns; he wasn't going to pay
and it didn't make any difference what other people said; he
was going to do what he wanted to do.
A Sounds like it, yes, sir.
Q Sounds like it, doesn't it?
A Uh-huh.
Q He also says, "I'm convinced that only after we
remove a few federal judges from the bench or throw a few in
jail" --
MR. BECRAFT: Objection, Your Honor. I have
sat back and listened to the prosecution --
MR. COLLIER: I don't hear an objection, Your
Honor. He's making a --
NR BECRAFT -- go over and over --
MR. COLLIER: I don't hear an objection, Your
Honor. He's making a speech.
THE COURT: Let's go to side bar.
(Whereupon, side bar conference was held
outside the hearing of the jury, as follows:)
MR. BECTAFT: Your Honor, I've been tolerant
and given the prosecution a substantial amount of leeway.
But I mean, he's getting in here, the whole purpose of his
cross-examination is to read from a book that the witness
has said that. he's relied upon or had any opinion. His
whole intent and purpose is to prejudice the jury by the
opinions and statements by somebody else which was not
adopted by this witness.
THE COURT: Overruled.
(Side bar conference was concluded and
proceedings continued in open court, as
follows:)
BY MR. COLLIER:
Q Mr. Long, Mr. Schiff says, and this is the same
chapter that talks about his own conviction and his own
experience, "I am convinced that only after we remove a few
federal judges from the bench or throw a few in jail for
blatantly refusing to enforce the Constitution will
sufficient numbers of others take that document seriously.
You rejected this, didn't you, when you saw
this?
A Certainly.
Q That's garbage?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you reject the whole book? Did you say to
yourself. "I can't believe anything at all that's in this
man's book because it's all garbage. He's a convicted
criminal. He has all kind of outlandish statements in
there, and it's nothing that any reasonable person should
rely upon." Did you tell yourself that?
A I did rely on some of the first part of it
where he quoted the section --
Q Even though he was a criminal? Even though the
man was a criminal?
A Well, he was quoting sections out of the code
that I'd already studied.
Q Even though the man is a criminal, you still
relied on it?
A Well, I studied it and they matched. I mean, I
did read some of that, you know. That's all.
Q And even though the man's case went up to the
Supreme Court, you still relied upon it?
A Like I say, he was a corporation, and I've
already said, you know, the income tax is an excise tax.
Q Another book that you gave to us during
discovery a few weeks ago is one by a man named Alan Stang,
called Tax Scam. How the IRA Swindles You and What You Can
Do About It. Did you give us that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And again, you gave us this book because, in
the general conversation when you gave us all these
materials, you said that you relied upon these things in
forming your opinions. Isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, the author of this book, Mr. Stang, do you
know if he was also convicted? Was he also a criminal?
A I read that book way back. I'm not sure.
Q You didn't check into his background to see
whether he was a criminal or not?
A No, sir. I didn't really check George Gordon's
background. I took what I was impressed with from those
meetings, and I went to the law library and I studied and I
proved that what the man said at that particular point in
time, not taking in any philosophy or anything, about what
the supreme courts had said and the United States Supreme
Court had said. That's all I took.
Q In chapter 18 of this book which you told us
that you relied upon, Mr. Stang tells us where he was when
he wrote his book. Guess where he was? Guess.
A I don't know.
Q He was in a federal penitentiary.
A Okay.
Q You read that, didn't you?
A I read it, but it's been a long time ago.
Q And he was in a federal penitentiary for guess
what?
A I don't know.
Q Failure to file his income tax return.
A Okay.
Q You read that, didn't you?
A I don't really remember, sir.
MR. BECRAFT. Your Honor,
A (Continuing.) It's been a long time. This has
been 12 years.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. BECRAFT: Same objection to the whole line
of inquiry.
THE COURT: Same overruling.
Q In his book he says this is in prison, and he
talks about how our country, the United States of America,
is totalitarian.
A I've read a lot of books, sir, you know.
There's a lot of things that I set aside and went on. Like
I say, I've shown you mostly what I studied, because I
didn't have time to do a lot of other things.
Q But you gave us this book?
A Yeah.
Q This is one of the books you gave us?
A Yes, sir.
Q You didn't give us the Gordon materials. You
gave us this.
A There's an explanation to that, but I don't
know if you want to hear it or not.
Q And in his book, this is near the middle
portion of the book, on page 164, in a chapter called
"Inside the Beast."
A Okay.
Q Do you recall reading that chapter?
A I'm not sure. That doesn't ring a bell. Go
ahead.
Q In here he tells you how to deal with the IRS.
Do you recall reading that chapter, how to deal with the
IRS?
A No, sir.
Q Do you recall reading "When they come around
wanting to collect taxes, you may want to ask a few
questions yourself." And it givee you some examples of
demands to make. It talks about the Freedom of Information
Act. That's pretty much what you did. You followed this
script, didn't you?
A I remember hearing something about the Freedom
of Information Act. No, sir, I didn't follow any script.
Absolutely not.
Q And the fact that some of your actions square
with what's in this book is just coincidence?
A Very possibly, yes, sir.
Q Chapter 12, "Corruption in the Courts."
That's the author's opinion, sir.
Now, what he talks about is that we have a
corrupt Congress that passes invalid and unconstitutional
tax laws, a corrupt court and a corrupt IRS.
You rejected all that when you read it, didn't
you?
A Yes, sir.
Q That's all garbage, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q He also talks about all of the crooked lawyers
and crooked accountants, how you cannot go to lawyers for
legal advice because lawyers are part of this monopoly and
they support the tax system. You rejected that, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q He also talks about accountants, how you cannot
believe and trust accountants because they're also part of
this corrupt system. You rejected that, didn't you?
A I've learned over the years, sir, that general
statements, you know, you can't do that. So, yes, I
rejected it.
Q In another chapter, "How to Protect Your
Property," there's this passage: "Somewhere along the line
you may need legal advice." And he's talking here about
people who fail to file their income tax returns and fail to
pay their taxes. He's giving them advice.
"Somewhere along the line you may need legal
advice. While there are some good, even magnificant
attorneys, most members of the bar association monopoly are
by far too terrified of our friends in the IRS to provide
it, even if they understood what you're talking about, which
they don't because they're victims of law school."
You didn't believe that, did you?
A I don't know. I'm not a lawyer.
Q You rejected that, didn't you?
A Would you read it again? I didn't quite follow
all of it.
Q He also says -- I think this is pretty near the
end of the book, that if you do what he says, you're
probably going to get charged with a crime.
A Okay.
Q You do you recall reading that?
A I don't recall that, sir.
Q And it says if you go to court, you're going to
get convicted?
A I don't recall that.
Q You don't recall reading that?
A Because I didn't do what he did.
Q Now, he also says in his book that nothing that
you read here should be considered legal advice.
A Okay.
Q And also, "Do not go into court with anything
you've read here unless you have expert assistance." What
he's saying is you can't rely upon anything that he says,
that you need to go get professional advice.
A Okay.
Q That's what he's saying. That's the bottom
line.
A Okay.
Q That's the same thing Mr. Schiff said also,
that you really can't rely upon what he says.
A Right.
Q So both these authors, who are both criminals,
are saying that "You can't rely upon me, and if you do do
what I say do, you may get yourself in trouble, and you need
to go talk to a lawyer," even though they're saying that
most lawyers are corrupt and are not to be trusted.
Did you go talk to a lawyer?
A No, sir, not at that time.
Q You did your own legal research?
A I did the best I could, yes, sir.
Q Tell the jury who Tupper Saussy is?
A Tupper Saussy is a gentleman that lived in
Sewanee.
Q How did you know Mr. Saussy?
A I did some work for him a time or two.
Q When?
A Oh, '82 or '3, somewhere back in there.
Q Do you watch television?
A Not a lot.
Q Do you read newspapers?
A Not a lot.
Q What newspapers do you read?
A I don't even receive a newspaper.
Q What newspapers do you read?
A I don't read a lot of newspapers.
Q When you do read --
A I read the county paper, the local paper.
Q What's the local paper?
A I don't remember. Winchester or Herald
Chronicle.
Q Other than doing some work for Mr. Saussy, did
you ever have any other association with him?
A Not really, sir.
Q Mr. Saussy was in one of these groups also,
wasn't he?
A He may've been the person that sponsored the
meeting I went to. I'm not sure.
Q He was there, wasn't he?
A I believe he was.
Q In fact, he's the one who told you about the
meeting, wasn't he?
A No, sir. I didn't know him, never even seen
him before that meeting.
Q So, you started working for him after the
meeting?
A Actually what happened, I believe, he found out
that I was good with woodworking, and somebody had given his
wife some solid poplar, raised-panel doors and he needed
them hung in his house. So, I went and put them in his
house.
Q And that was before the meeting?
A No, no.
Q That was after the meeting?
A After the meeting.
Q But you saw him at the meeting?
A I remember him being there, yes, sir.
Q And you saw him later on?
A When I put the doors in, yes, sir.
Q And after this meeting that Mr. Gordon spoke,
you had a very, very deep interest in not paying income
taxes?
A No, sir. I had a deep interest in learning
about how this thing worked, yes, sir.
Q Did you share any of your interests with Mr.
Saussy?
A We may've talked about it briefly while I was
working.
Q Now, Mr. Saussy was convicted in this court in
1985. You heard about that, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You also read about it, didn't you?
A No, sir, I didn't read about it.
Q You didn't read it out of the Winchester or
Herald Chronicle?
A No, sir.
Q Tell the members of the jury what Mr. Saussy
was convicted of.
A I don't really remember, sir. I really don't.
I was working. I didn't have time to read papers. I was
trying to raise a family and study and learn. At that point
in time I was just doing the best I could.
Q You never heard that Mr. Saussy was charged
with three counts of failure to file income tax returns?
A I didn't know specifically that, no, sir. I
knew it had something to do with income tax, yes.
Q And generally you knew what it was, but not
specifically?
A Right.
Q And Mr. Saussy lived where? Where did he live?
A He lived in Sewanee.
Q He lived in Sewanee?
A Uh-huh.
Q And you lived where at the time?
A I live in Alto, which is down the mountain.
Q Mr. Leonard, wasn't he a member of this
Tullahoma tax protest group that you belong to or that you
corresponded with?
A Who now?
Q Mr. Saussy.
A No, sir. He was not a member.
Q He was not a member of that group?
A Oh, no.
Q What were the other groups? You said there
were other groups that you-all corresponded with.
A There's groups in different states.
Q How about here in Tennessee. Tell us some
of --
A The groups themselves did that. I just
attended various meetings at times. I don't even really
consider myself a, quote, group member. I just went when I
could.
Q So, you don't know the location of another
single group here in East Tennessee?
A I don't have an address, no, sir.
Q Well, how about a city?
A No, I really don't.
Q You really don't?
A Huh-uh.
Q And of course you don't have any knowledge at
all then of who belongs to those other groups?
A How would I?
Q Exactly.
A Yeah. What difference does it make?
Q Now, Mr. Saussy's conviction, I believe it was
in 1985. You had heard some general information about it,
had you not? I think you just said that.
A I'd just heard he was convicted.
Q Now, you were going to go over to Vanderbilt
trying to get information on the law and look up Supreme
Court cases. You didn't come over to Chattanooga, though,
to find out why Mr. Saussy got convicted, did you? You
didn't do that?
A I don't recall doing that, no, sir.
Q How far is it from your home to Chattanooga?
A It's about sixty miles, I believe.
Q How far is it from your home to Vanderbilt?
A From Tullahoma it's about seventy miles.
Q About seventy miles. So, it's a little bit
shorter to come to Chattanooga than it is to --
A It might be, depending on which way you went.
From Tullahoma it would be further to Chattanooga.
Q And you didn't come to Chattanooga to check the
court records to see whether Mr. Saussy's ideas about wages
and the 16th Amendment and gross income and all these other
things that you've been talking about were accepted by the
court, did you? You didn't do that?
A No, sir.
Q You also didn't check to see what the courts of
appeal did with his case, did you?
A No, sir.
Q And you didn't check to see whether the Supreme
Court had ever heard it, did you?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know a man named Russell Leonard?
A I believe I've met him, yes, sir.
Q And I don't mean your lawyer, Mr. Leonard.
A I understand.
Q When did you meet Mr. Russell Leonard?
A I don't know exactly. Somewhere back in that
period of time.
Q Did you share your interest in the tax laws or
lack of tax laws with Mr. Leonard?
A No, sir. I don't recall doing that.
Q Did he share his beliefs with you?
A No, not really.
Q Did you-all discuss taxes at all?
A No. We just happened to be at a meeting
together one time is all I remember.
Q And what was the purpose of this meeting?
A It was just a meeting to -- I don't even
remember what we studied or sought that night. We watched
things on environment. We watched different things. It
varied from time to time.
Q Who else was at this meeting?
A I don't recall.
Q Mr. Leonard was there and you were there?
A I just remember meeting Mr. Leonard. You asked
me and I told you.
Q Just one time?
A Oh, I've met him -- I've seen him a few times
other than that.
Q Where else have you seen him?
A Well, he lives in Sewanee, you know. He drives
through Winchester. We see one another every now and then.
Q He stops by your house?
A No, sir.
Q Well, if he passed through Winchester, -- I've
passed through Winchester. You've never seen me, have you?
A No, sir.
Q Did he stop at your job?
A Oh, no.
Q When he passed through Winchester?
A No, sir.
Q Well, how do you see him?
A I just mentioned that I bumped into him a time
or two in town. Winchester is Winchester. That's all there
is. If you live in Sewanee, you go Winchester.
Q You had heard that Mr. Leonard was also
convicted of failure to file income tax returns, hadn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was back about 1985, when he was
convicted?
A Probably.
Q How many counts was he convicted of?
A I don't know, sir.
Q But this is someone who you knew?
A I had met him.
Q You had met him?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you did not come over to Chattanooga to see
why he was convicted of failure to file his income tax
returns, did you?
A No, sir.
Q And you did not come to Chattanooga to see what
the courts of appeal did with his conviction, did you?
A No, sir.
Q And you didn't come to see what the Supreme
Court did with his conviction, did you?
A No, sir.
Q Now, Mr. Russell Leonard was not a corporation,
was he?
A I don't really know, sir.
Q Mr. Tupper Saussy, when you saw him walking
around you knew he wasn't a corporation, didn't you?
A I had no way of knowing.
Q You had no way of knowing?
A No.
Q How about Mr. Saussy? Mr. Saussy wasn't a
corporation?
A I had no way of knowing what he was, sir.
Q Had no way of knowing?
A No, sir.
Q Now, these Supreme Court cases that you filed,
the only ones you told us about are the ones that support
your views. You didn't tell us about any of the Supreme
Court cases you found that contradict your views?
A I studied the ones that I knew about and did
the best I could, sir.
Q You didn't see a lawyer?
A No, sir.
Q You took it upon yourself?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you've mentioned a lot of times that you're
a teacher, what you do as a teacher and what teachers do.
Mr. Long, if a student came to you with a complicated
question about calculus, you wouldn't answer that student,
would you?
A I'm sorry?
Q If a student came to you with a complicated
question about calculus, you would not try to answer that
student's question, would you?
A No, sir.
Q You'd refer that student to a math professor or
math teacher, wouldn't you?
A Probably.
Q Because that math teacher would know a lot more
about calculus than you would know, wouldn't he?
A Probably.
Q And although these books that we've talked
about, the Schiff book, the Stang book, and the Gordon book,
they all tell you that you can't rely upon what they say and
you need to go and see a lawyer, you never went to see a
lawyer, did you?
A No, sir.
Q And that was a decision that you made?
A Yes, sir.
Q You decided not to see a lawyer?
A Yes, sir. I didn't have the money really to
see one.
Q How much money does it cost?
A I don't know.
Q How much was Schiff's book? How much did you
pay for it?
A I don't remember.
Q How much did you pay for Stang's book?
A I don't remember.
Q How much did you pay for Detaxing America? How
much did you pay for this?
A I don't really remember. I think somebody gave
me that.
Q Somebody may've given this to you?
A Yeah.
Q How much did you pay for Which One Are You?
The American Nonresident Taxpayer?
A I think somebody gave me that one.
Q Somebody gave that one to you?
A Uh-huh.
Q How much did you pay for D. Vincent's, this
looks like a trial transcript of something.
A Somebody gave me that also, sir.
Q Are people in this movement very free with
these things?
A Yes, sir.
Q So, once you become a true believer, you try to
spread that belief out?
A Well, I don't know about that, sir. Just
trying to share information. Is there anything wrong with
that?
Q Now, you don't know how much time you put into
studying the tax laws here, but it's been a considerable
amount of time, hasn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q How much time did you put into studying the
laws against rape?
A I just know it's wrong, sir.
Q You haven't studied that at all?
A I don't have to study that one.
Q Do you even know the citation in Tennessee for
the law against rape?
A No, sir. I just know it's wrong.
Q But there's something about taxes that made you
study them?
A Certainly.
Q And that thing is you don't want to pay your
taxes?
A No, sir. I've always tried to pay whatever I
owe. And I asked the government time and time again to tell
me if I owed anything, and they wouldn't tell me.
Q Now, let's take a look at some of these letters
that you talked about. Now, you admitted that you had more
than the amount that was necessary to file a return. You
did that early on. Remember?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you heard the witness testify that if a
person made less than that that there was no requirement for
them to file if they were married and could've filed a
married, filing joint return. Remember that?
A I believe so.
Q And she said that varied. If you were single,
another rule would apply, that there's a lot of things that
went into it. Do you remember that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. Now, the first letter that you wrote to
the Internal Revenue Service, that's your Exhibit No. 9. Do
you have that there?
A The first letter? I sure do, uh-huh.
Q Tell the jury how much money you told the IRS
you made that year in your letter?
A I didn't tell them how much I made.
Q You didn't tell them how much you made, did
you? You didn't put any amount in that letter, did you?
A No, sir.
Q Okay. So, you're asking somebody to tell you
whether you meet all these three requirements, when you
don't tell them how much money you make?
A I'm asking them to tell me if I'm even a person
that's supposed to fit into that category, sir, is what I'm
asking them.
Q Well, your question number one, "Am I required
to file a federal income tax return?"
A Right.
Q Isn't that your question?
A That's the question.
Q Am I misleading you? Am I misstating anything?
A That's the question.
Q That's what you say, "Am I required to file a
federal income tax return?"
A That's right.
Q There no way anybody can answer that if you
don't tell them how much money you made, is there?
A Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir. 6001, 6011 talks
about persons liable, sir. I'm trying to find out if I'm a
person liable.
Q Well, if you'd made $5,000, under these
circumstances, according to the evidence in this case, you
would not have been required to file an income tax return.
So, the answer to the question would've been no, if you'd
made $5,000. The correct answer would've been no.
A If I was a person liable, yes, sir.
Q And you didn't provide them with any
information about how much you made, did you?
A I didn't think I had to. I'm asking them to
tell me if I am a person liable for any kind of tax, federal
tax.
Q They wrote back to you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And this is the reply to the first letter,
isn't it?
A It appears to be, yes, sir.
Q And this is part of your exhibit?
A Yes, sir.
Q This is just a blowup?
A Okay.
Q And it says, "Current federal tax law enacted
by Congress is the Internal Revenue Code."
A Right.
Q "Section 6012 of the code provides that every
individual whose gross income for the tax year equals or
exceeds specified amounts must make a return with respect to
income taxes." That's what it says, isn't it?
A Let me look right here, sir.
Q Mr. Long, I'm asking you what the letter says.
A Oh, okay. Yes, sir.
Q Isn't that what the letter says?
A That's what it says, yes, sir.
Q At the bottom here, the letter says, "The
government expects voluntary compliance with the federal tax
laws."
A Yes, sir, it sure does.
Q "This means that we expect taxpayers to comply
with the law without being compelled to do so by action of a
government agent."
A Okay.
Q "It does not mean the taxpayer is free to
disregard the law. If an individual is required by law to
file a return" --
A "If." If an individual is required, sir.
That's what I tried to find out, sir.
Q or pay tax, it is mandatory that he or she
must do so."
A Okay.
Q "failure to do so could cause the individual to
be subject to civil and criminal penalties, including fines
and imprisonment."
A Okay.
Q So, they told you that what. they want is people
to comply with the law without having anyone coming down
forcing you to do so, but it is still mandatory. That's
what they said, wasn't it?
A If you are required, sir. Yes, sir, that's
what it says. If you are required.
Q Now, you disagreed with them up here, didn't
you? Although they told you that the requirement was set
out in Section 6012, you disagreed with that, didn't you?
A It doesn't say who's liable, sir.
Q You disagreed with that, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q You thought they were wrong?
A I don't know if they're wrong or not. It just
doesn't say anybody's liable.
Q You thought the Internal Revenue Service was
wrong when they wrote back to you?
A I'm not saying they're wrong, sir. I've asked
them -- if that's what it says, if it says I'm required, why
didn't they say, "Yes, Mr. Long, you're required"? That's
all I want to know, sir.
Q And they told you back here, back in 1989, that
you could go to prison? They told you that, didn't they?
A If I was required to file, yes, sir, and I
didn't.
Q And they also told you that. if you met the
minimum filing requirements and failed to file a return --
I'm sorry. That if you met the minimum mandatory filing
requirements, that it was mandatory that you file a return.
That's what it says, it is mandatory that he or she do so.
A If you're liable for the tax, sure it would be
mandatory.
Q Now, you understood this, didn't you? You
understood what they were saying?
A Uh-huh.
Q You just disagreed with it?
A No, sir, I didn't clearly understand because it
says if you're --
Q Oh, you didn't understand. You didn't
understand?
A Ask me again, sir. Ask me again.
THE COURT: Let's take a luncheon recess at
this time.
Ladies and gentlemen, come back at -- how much
more do you have, Mr. Collier?
MR. COLLIER: I'd say about thirty minutes,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Let's come back at 1:15.
Remember the things I told you. We'll be in recess until
then.
(Luncheon recess was had.)
AFTERNOON SESSION 1:15 p.m.
THE COURT: Are we ready to proceed, Mr.
Collier?
MR. COLLIER: Yes, Your Honor.
BY MR. COLLIER:
Q Now, when we finished, Mr. Long, we had just
completed the first response that you received from the
Internal Revenue Service.
Now, after that you sent another group of
letters. I believe they're your Defense Exhibit No. 10?
A May be, sir. I don't have them.
Q And you received a reply, did you not?
A I don't have them up here with me, sir.
(Documents furnished.) Exhibit 10. Okay.
Q And I don't have a date on the front of the
letter in your 10, but it's notarized on November 6th of
1989? Is that right?
A Yes, sir. It was mailed on October 11th.
Q Now, in this letter you also don't tell them
how much money you made, did you?
A No, sir.
Q And they sent you a reply back and they
responded again in general terms?
A Very general.
Q This is a one page letter. This is in your
exhibit. And in the third paragraph here they make
reference to their earlier letter they had sent, and they
tell you again that the federal tax law requires an
individual to file a return and pay taxes if he or she has
gross income that equals or exceeds a certain amount?
A Yes, sir.
Q That's what it says?
A That's what it says, yes, sir.
Q And then it talks about another section of the
law, Section 6012?
A Uh-huh.
Q Now, in your letter you had suggested that
because you were doing labor and had received wages, that
perhaps wages were not income?
A No, sir.
Q Are you suggesting that?
A No, I didn't suggest anything about wages. I
suggested that I was contracting and receiving compensation.
And I believe my 1099s show clearly that it plainly states
nonemployee compensation, sir.
Q Well, in response, or however you put it in
your letter, they told you that if services are paid for in
services, the fair market value of service taken in payment
must be included in a person's gross income. That's what
they told you?
A That's what the letter says, yes, sir.
Q And then you'd asked some questions about
whether you were self-employed or something. That's in your
letter?
A No, sir.
Q And they --
A Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Q And they respond that if a person is
self-employed that there's a different rule, that you have
to file a return if you make $400 or more?
A Yeah, that's in there.
Q And if you're self-employed --
A If. If.
Q You don't follow the normal requirements for a
person that's set out in this earlier chart, but the amount
there is just $400?
A Yes, sir, that's what it says.
Q And then you'd asked some general questions
about social security numbers, and they give you a very
general reply?
A No, sir, not in this letter. I asked them very
specific questions: Am I required to file a federal tax
form of any kind? If so. what type of federal tax are you
implying that I'm liable for, and what is the source of that
tax 1iability?
I'm asking to see the section that makes me
liable.
Q Well, whether you asked or not, they gave you
some information about the social security numbers, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q You did ask in your first letter, though, about
that?
A Yes, sir, if there was a law that required
anybody to have one, yes, sir.
Q So, they may've been replying to your first
letter?
A That's possible.
Q Obviously they'd read the first letter because
they make reference to their earlier reply to you?
A Yes, sir. That's possible.
Q Now, this letter, the one that we just talked
about, is dated October the 13th or 31st?
A That's the answer, the reply I got back?
Q What's the date on it at the top?
A That one says the 13th. I'm sorry, 31st.
Q Later on you received yet another letter in
response to your correspondence, and this letter is dated
December 5, 1989?
A Uh-huh. Yes, sir.
Q And the third paragraph is almost identical to
that same paragraph in the earlier letter?
A Yes, sir.
Q Again they say that the federal law requires a
return to be filed. And again they say if services are paid
for in services, that the fair market value of those
services must be included. And they underline the word
"must," don't they?
A Yes, sir. Sure do.
Q And again we have $400 for the self-employed
individuals. And again they talk about the social security
numbers.
A That's true. But if you recall, Tennessee
State Supreme Court says that the right to receive income or
earnings is a right belonging to every person, and that
right cannot be taxed as a privilege, sir.